Preview Mode Links will not work in preview mode

The Follow-Up Question

Jul 11, 2022

So often, our response to difficult and divisive conversations falls one of two ways — either we avoid the messiness and complexity and withdraw, or, we go in with clenched fists, ready for a fight.


But as you’ll hear from my guests this week, there is a third way.


John Siebeling and Wayne Francis are two pastors and friends that lead thriving churches in two very different cities who teamed up to give us a perspective of this “third way” in the book they co-authored, God and Race: A guide for moving beyond black fists and white knuckles.


John, along with his wife Leslie, founded The Life Church, which is based in Memphis, Tennessee. Wayne founded Authentic Church in New York, and in 2020, Authentic Church merged with The Life Church.


And, Wayne is Black, and John is White.


In their book and in our conversation today, Wayne and John advocate for open-handed conversation on difficult and nuanced topics, in this case specifically about race, racism, and the Church’s role in the conversation.


The third way that Wayne and John and I are asking us to enter into means we must begin to see problems from others perspectives, we must stop seeking perfection over progress, and we must understand that our influence starts with our ears before we ever utter a word.


You can find out more about Wayne and John's book at, and you can listen to their podcast, Leadership in Black and White, at